You haven’t added to my troubles. I totally understand your comment about abusive pastors. I’ve spoken with many people who have been abused by a pastor. Church hurt is hard to overcome because you’re hurt by professing Christians who are supposed to love God and their neighbors. I write from my own personal experiences as a pastor and of course it is purely subjective and I have prayed for healing and reconciliation for many years for people who have hurt me in ministry. I desire for healing in the body of Christ but unfortunately that healing does not come if one party does not want it or desire it. All I can be or do is try my best to be obedient to The Word of God. Am I perfect? No. But my desire is to honor The Lord and walk in obedience. Thanks for your comment, have a blessed evening.
Interesting post. I suppose that you know there is another side to it.
I have seem many self-righteous pastors manipulate the congregation into doing what the pastor had determined was God's will and feel totally justified in it.
Many that think being a professional minister makes them more in tune with God, more knowledgeable, more plain out entitled. The cult of expertise is bad enough in government or public life, in the church it is pure Hell, like having your brother tell you he knows your dad better than you do because he studied him in college.
We can all agree that that church today is in a shameful state, so any expertise that any of us have should be highly suspect. The fundamental point is that we are all VASTLY overestimating our own spiritual maturity, actually the 'worldly Christian' who knows he is worldly and beats his breast saying 'Lord have mercy on me a sinner' is way ahead of us spiritual types.
My sympathy in dealing with unforgiving brethren, I am sorry if I have added to your troubles. My experience as a laic tells me that it is easy to have bitterness grow up against a pastor and Bitter Betty may not be acting out of bitterness so much as genuine offense over possibly another matter entirely. It can be very difficult to fix because it isn't easy to take an apology from a pastor as sincere when you know that being humble is their career choice and being spiritual and loving is their power move. I might try something else, I might try telling Betty that I am bitter, that I am mad as hell too about some of the things that she has done, not mad as a pastor or an administrator, not mad for the good of the church or for the Lord's glory, just mad as a person, as a man. Maybe talk to her one sinner to another, after all the great prerequisite to receiving grace is...being a sinner who needs it.
I guessni am justbreally suspicious of the logic that says 'fallen men(the elders) in a divinely sanctioned system(presbyterianism) can be expected to act in an unfallen way' you say that oversight in such a system has the presumption of being nontyrannical, I say oversight by any fallen perso or persons should always be presumed tyrannical, and presuming that arranging people in the right way with the right procedures will fix them would have worked with the Law of Moses if it was gonna work with your Presbytery
Why would pride be less tempting to ten men in charge or a hundred than to one? Rather, i would think that the larger number would, if anything, be provoked to envy and strife with one another. But more to the point, where do we ever find a system that prevents sin, in this case a plurality of elders preventing the sin of pride? Rather we find that 'by the system is the knowledge of sin', so we must say that a better system, a divinely inspired one will do the opposite and provoke the sin that it might make it known, whereas an inferior system will allow the sin to hide and produce the appearance of a tranquil, prosperous church.
No. The goal is mature Sonship. Submission to Scripture is a means to that end, I would say a necessary means but He works through means, without means, or in opposition to means. That being said, if I was going to submit or comply to any good thing then I would have done it to the Law of Moses. Substituting another set of ordinances that we think are 'Pauline' or New Testament only moves the failure and blame from us to the Law. So this apparent humble submission is actually the most devilish of pride, it says 'I would have kept the Law if I had been given the right Law' or 'If you, God, had done X or Y I would have submitted to you.' No, we are not given the power to please God, as you put it to submit to Scripture, because this is not a power that Our Lord wants us to have.
But as far as submission to Scripture goes this is definitely way down on the list, somewhere towards tithing cumin and annis.(sp? not gonna look it up now) Imagining that having the right arrangement of leadership is the crucial matter holding our church, or any church, back is almost certainly off base. Again, I have no problem with presbyterian government, in fact I suppose we are run informally in an essentially presbyterian manner, but it is worth noting that Scripture nowhere makes such a command. Paul says that he appoints elders in churches and he tells Timothy to do so but the inference that this is how all churches at all times in all places should be organized is rather weak. When we look at an explicitly divinely sanctioned mode of government Presbyterianism is a very poor analogue for the divinely arranged Levite Priesthood, and I suspect not as close to that of the Apostolic College as you might think. It is Paul either continuing a synagogue form of government or simply a codifying of a spontaneous democracy which arose in the church, without as far as I can tell any explicit divine sanction. So the claim that this form of government is some special and exalted form of obedience seems unsupported.
I guess where I disagree is that I think that we are all goats. If any of the methods of governance were producing results then there would be some kind of noticeable difference, I think. And what I see is all of the churches in the same boat, or rather lifeboat because we have all pretty well sunk as far as I can tell.
I just am no longer convinced that building an institution and building the kingdom have any connection with one another.
There is an old saying that a church should look like a hospital, well I halfway agree. It should look like a hospice ward. We are the ones that God has given up on ever fixing. Whatever He has invested in us He has written off. He knows there will never be any ROI here. The thing about a hospice is that once the doctor gives up, the patient is free. When you are terminal you can give up the healthy diet, give up the exercise, and spend your remaining days playing with your kids and staring at the sunset with your wife. Or glorifying God and enjoying Him forever.
The typical objection to this is that it leads to antinomian licentiousness. And I can see that theoretically but in practice it doesn't happen that way. The Spirit keeps His own. Grace is scary but in the way a well built Rollercoaster is scary. It looks and feels like it will fly off the track but it never does. It makes sense that it would it is only in practice that we see that it doesn't.
As for the ones who will 'run amok'(however you spell it) without the law as a bridle, I am surprised that they can stand hearing the forgiveness of sins, the abandonment of our righteousness, and the acceptance of the last, the least and the lost. I don't say deliberately offend, or try and separate out sheep and goats. I hate to offend anyone but if the cross offends, there isn't much I can do.
I guess it depends on what you mean by thriving. What I see wherever I look is a church that has nothing of substance and very little Good News to offer to the world at large. The church sniffs its own farts and pretends they don't stink while the world goes on its way to Hell.
When I see a community, a town, a village, whatever where the presence of the church makes an actual difference, not in]# some ridiculous social gospel or social justice way, but a place that is actually better for having a church in it I will take claims to be thriving seriously.
But when our country, state, world, and town gets deeper into Hell everyday none of us need to be thinking we have anything of substance right.
I am generally supportive of a Presbyterian form of government, Paul was too. But I'd listen to Free Grace from a dictator, a dominatrix, a dingo, or a dolomite who recognizes him/her/it self as a current, active card carrying Sinner before I would sit through being told by an elder in the best arranged Presbyterian anything else, particularly how right he is. It seems a bit like congratulating yourself for the great arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I am not claiming that it is in our power to change hearts, certainly not cultures, but I consider this a sinking ship as long as we have zero impact on the culture. Kierkegaard said that until the world screams for your death when they see you, you cannot consider that you have delivered the message of the New Testament to them. We are ethically speaking back in Pagan Rome and the world barely bothers most of us, myself certainly included. I'll consider a church thriving in '22 America when they get thrown to the lions, whether they have a plurality of elders or they take their orders from the drummer.
I've thought about it and this issue of church government is clearly very important to you.(not a deep insight I realized that when I saw how prominent it is in your profile.) Not to be rude but it is not at all important to me. Certainly not important enough to argue with a brother. So thank you for the intellectual stimulation and hopefully edification but I fear that, as you say, we are talking past one another. One point I did want to clear up, although I did have the impression that you were a member of a Presbyterian denomination that is presbuteros is simply the Greek word for elders. And the form of government to which you are so attached is generically known as Presbyterian whether you refer to your denomination or church by that name or not. Thanks. Love and peace, jc
You haven’t added to my troubles. I totally understand your comment about abusive pastors. I’ve spoken with many people who have been abused by a pastor. Church hurt is hard to overcome because you’re hurt by professing Christians who are supposed to love God and their neighbors. I write from my own personal experiences as a pastor and of course it is purely subjective and I have prayed for healing and reconciliation for many years for people who have hurt me in ministry. I desire for healing in the body of Christ but unfortunately that healing does not come if one party does not want it or desire it. All I can be or do is try my best to be obedient to The Word of God. Am I perfect? No. But my desire is to honor The Lord and walk in obedience. Thanks for your comment, have a blessed evening.
Interesting post. I suppose that you know there is another side to it.
I have seem many self-righteous pastors manipulate the congregation into doing what the pastor had determined was God's will and feel totally justified in it.
Many that think being a professional minister makes them more in tune with God, more knowledgeable, more plain out entitled. The cult of expertise is bad enough in government or public life, in the church it is pure Hell, like having your brother tell you he knows your dad better than you do because he studied him in college.
We can all agree that that church today is in a shameful state, so any expertise that any of us have should be highly suspect. The fundamental point is that we are all VASTLY overestimating our own spiritual maturity, actually the 'worldly Christian' who knows he is worldly and beats his breast saying 'Lord have mercy on me a sinner' is way ahead of us spiritual types.
I wrote on this issue some time ago here:
https://comfortwithtruth.substack.com/p/baby-christians
My sympathy in dealing with unforgiving brethren, I am sorry if I have added to your troubles. My experience as a laic tells me that it is easy to have bitterness grow up against a pastor and Bitter Betty may not be acting out of bitterness so much as genuine offense over possibly another matter entirely. It can be very difficult to fix because it isn't easy to take an apology from a pastor as sincere when you know that being humble is their career choice and being spiritual and loving is their power move. I might try something else, I might try telling Betty that I am bitter, that I am mad as hell too about some of the things that she has done, not mad as a pastor or an administrator, not mad for the good of the church or for the Lord's glory, just mad as a person, as a man. Maybe talk to her one sinner to another, after all the great prerequisite to receiving grace is...being a sinner who needs it.
I guessni am justbreally suspicious of the logic that says 'fallen men(the elders) in a divinely sanctioned system(presbyterianism) can be expected to act in an unfallen way' you say that oversight in such a system has the presumption of being nontyrannical, I say oversight by any fallen perso or persons should always be presumed tyrannical, and presuming that arranging people in the right way with the right procedures will fix them would have worked with the Law of Moses if it was gonna work with your Presbytery
Why would pride be less tempting to ten men in charge or a hundred than to one? Rather, i would think that the larger number would, if anything, be provoked to envy and strife with one another. But more to the point, where do we ever find a system that prevents sin, in this case a plurality of elders preventing the sin of pride? Rather we find that 'by the system is the knowledge of sin', so we must say that a better system, a divinely inspired one will do the opposite and provoke the sin that it might make it known, whereas an inferior system will allow the sin to hide and produce the appearance of a tranquil, prosperous church.
No. The goal is mature Sonship. Submission to Scripture is a means to that end, I would say a necessary means but He works through means, without means, or in opposition to means. That being said, if I was going to submit or comply to any good thing then I would have done it to the Law of Moses. Substituting another set of ordinances that we think are 'Pauline' or New Testament only moves the failure and blame from us to the Law. So this apparent humble submission is actually the most devilish of pride, it says 'I would have kept the Law if I had been given the right Law' or 'If you, God, had done X or Y I would have submitted to you.' No, we are not given the power to please God, as you put it to submit to Scripture, because this is not a power that Our Lord wants us to have.
But as far as submission to Scripture goes this is definitely way down on the list, somewhere towards tithing cumin and annis.(sp? not gonna look it up now) Imagining that having the right arrangement of leadership is the crucial matter holding our church, or any church, back is almost certainly off base. Again, I have no problem with presbyterian government, in fact I suppose we are run informally in an essentially presbyterian manner, but it is worth noting that Scripture nowhere makes such a command. Paul says that he appoints elders in churches and he tells Timothy to do so but the inference that this is how all churches at all times in all places should be organized is rather weak. When we look at an explicitly divinely sanctioned mode of government Presbyterianism is a very poor analogue for the divinely arranged Levite Priesthood, and I suspect not as close to that of the Apostolic College as you might think. It is Paul either continuing a synagogue form of government or simply a codifying of a spontaneous democracy which arose in the church, without as far as I can tell any explicit divine sanction. So the claim that this form of government is some special and exalted form of obedience seems unsupported.
I guess where I disagree is that I think that we are all goats. If any of the methods of governance were producing results then there would be some kind of noticeable difference, I think. And what I see is all of the churches in the same boat, or rather lifeboat because we have all pretty well sunk as far as I can tell.
I just am no longer convinced that building an institution and building the kingdom have any connection with one another.
There is an old saying that a church should look like a hospital, well I halfway agree. It should look like a hospice ward. We are the ones that God has given up on ever fixing. Whatever He has invested in us He has written off. He knows there will never be any ROI here. The thing about a hospice is that once the doctor gives up, the patient is free. When you are terminal you can give up the healthy diet, give up the exercise, and spend your remaining days playing with your kids and staring at the sunset with your wife. Or glorifying God and enjoying Him forever.
The typical objection to this is that it leads to antinomian licentiousness. And I can see that theoretically but in practice it doesn't happen that way. The Spirit keeps His own. Grace is scary but in the way a well built Rollercoaster is scary. It looks and feels like it will fly off the track but it never does. It makes sense that it would it is only in practice that we see that it doesn't.
As for the ones who will 'run amok'(however you spell it) without the law as a bridle, I am surprised that they can stand hearing the forgiveness of sins, the abandonment of our righteousness, and the acceptance of the last, the least and the lost. I don't say deliberately offend, or try and separate out sheep and goats. I hate to offend anyone but if the cross offends, there isn't much I can do.
I guess it depends on what you mean by thriving. What I see wherever I look is a church that has nothing of substance and very little Good News to offer to the world at large. The church sniffs its own farts and pretends they don't stink while the world goes on its way to Hell.
When I see a community, a town, a village, whatever where the presence of the church makes an actual difference, not in]# some ridiculous social gospel or social justice way, but a place that is actually better for having a church in it I will take claims to be thriving seriously.
But when our country, state, world, and town gets deeper into Hell everyday none of us need to be thinking we have anything of substance right.
I am generally supportive of a Presbyterian form of government, Paul was too. But I'd listen to Free Grace from a dictator, a dominatrix, a dingo, or a dolomite who recognizes him/her/it self as a current, active card carrying Sinner before I would sit through being told by an elder in the best arranged Presbyterian anything else, particularly how right he is. It seems a bit like congratulating yourself for the great arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I am not claiming that it is in our power to change hearts, certainly not cultures, but I consider this a sinking ship as long as we have zero impact on the culture. Kierkegaard said that until the world screams for your death when they see you, you cannot consider that you have delivered the message of the New Testament to them. We are ethically speaking back in Pagan Rome and the world barely bothers most of us, myself certainly included. I'll consider a church thriving in '22 America when they get thrown to the lions, whether they have a plurality of elders or they take their orders from the drummer.
I've thought about it and this issue of church government is clearly very important to you.(not a deep insight I realized that when I saw how prominent it is in your profile.) Not to be rude but it is not at all important to me. Certainly not important enough to argue with a brother. So thank you for the intellectual stimulation and hopefully edification but I fear that, as you say, we are talking past one another. One point I did want to clear up, although I did have the impression that you were a member of a Presbyterian denomination that is presbuteros is simply the Greek word for elders. And the form of government to which you are so attached is generically known as Presbyterian whether you refer to your denomination or church by that name or not. Thanks. Love and peace, jc